Foxy Green Foxbody Build

89 Fox 427 said:
I have since thrown out all traces the metal so can't really say what it looks like. Mix of casting flash and small specs maybe.

The lifters were "gritty" going in. I brought this to the attention of the shortblock builder who told me to put sandpaper on my finger and just run it through a few times. I almost blew a gasket and said you want me to create metal shavings in an assembled block (I had everything else installed at that point). Anyways, I didn't bother and it may have bit me in the ass.

My lifters measure .8175. I don't know what the bores are. I think dart lifter bores are machined to .8730 so you can open them up if you need to. My new Johnson lifters he said you want .018-.020 lifter bore clearance. I have to verify this when they arrive. I did not check oiling without rocker i installed, but they would seem to be correct.

I don't believe any plugs are missing. I don't believe the sound was in the bottom end. I had a friend verify the noise who has been an arbitrator for adesa for 20 years. He listens to engines knock and tick day in and day out and I trust his opinion since he was there in person with me. His opinion was top end valvetrain.
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Ok. If they were tight and being side orifice oiling that could be the issue of top end oiling (how do the lifter bores look?). Metal up top might just be machining crap that was in the gallery.
What's making the noise though??? Are your springs hitting the valve seals ?
 
What do the rocker trunions and roller tips look like? Scorpions are more of an entry level rocker and might not be as robust as others.
 
BOSS#1540 said:
Ok. If they were tight and being side orifice oiling that could be the issue of top end oiling (how do the lifter bores look?). Metal up top might just be machining crap that was in the gallery.
What's making the noise though??? Are your springs hitting the valve seals ?
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Lifter bores look good. They don't feel well chamfered but aren't "sharp" per se. I would have expected more chamfered edges on them but that's my ex-machinist brain

I have found nothing that would make the noise yet except the end of one pushrod being beat up. If the lifter wasnt pumping up every time I could see it smashing into rocker every time and ticking
 
No debree under the intake is a good thing that mean the trouble is all in the heads and not thru the entire engine .
I would say its from that pushrod
 
89 Fox 427 said:
Lifter bores look good. They don't feel well chamfered but aren't "sharp" per se. I would have expected more chamfered edges on them but that's my ex-machinist brain

I have found nothing that would make the noise yet except the end of one pushrod being beat up. If the lifter wasnt pumping up every time I could see it smashing into rocker every time and ticking
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My brother was a machinist also. So that 0. 8715 is accurate then. Try and get a bore gauge from someone or at least a T square as mentioned while it's apart to measure the bore. No plug missing in valley etc ? Prime it with the intake off and look for leaks.
As far as oil in runners how do the intake gaskets look around the ports, making an impression, wet, mis-shaped
 
BOSS#1540 said:
My brother was a machinist also. So that 0. 8715 is accurate then. Try and get a bore gauge from someone or at least a T square as mentioned while it's apart to measure the bore. No plug missing in valley etc ? Prime it with the intake off and look for leaks.
As far as oil in runners how do the intake gaskets look around the ports, making an impression, wet, mis-shaped
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Post 1848 shows intake and it looks like a good impression. I may smear rtv around all the ports this time im not sure yet. Just another thing I wish I would have payed more attention to. There should be no reason for oil to have pooled in there. A running engine would have burned that off and sucked it into the cylinder so it's kind of a mystery
 
89 Fox 427 said:
Since I'm the one that stuck the heads together, it's possible the springs are rubbing together but how do you prevent that? They're a tight fit. Retainers and locks look fine to me.
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You don't. It's just how some spring/damper setups work. It's up to the mfg to smooth everything off before they put them together to keep it from happening. I'm from the era where we took them apart and deburred/polished everything on comp/modified eliminator stuff, against the recommendations of the mfgs not to disassemble them. Otherwise you just dealt with it. Are the retainers steel? The springs could be chewing the underside of the steel retainers or the surface of the heads or the shims to make that dirt. You wouldn't be able to see any of this without taking the springs off the heads. Some of us just expected it to happen and changed the oil and filters a lot. That's why I made the comment Is that all? I thought springs were better now. Oval guys now spray pressure oil directly on the springs to keep them lubricated and cool.
 
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Yes the retainers are steel. I'll take a really good look at the springs today while I'm scraping gaskets off
 
How much metal did you actually find in the heads? Was it a fine powder or did you see little pieces? Was it all ferrous? I think you said there are 25 ish miles total on this engine now? It is kind of rare for metal from the lower end to get up there in your type of engine, it would have to come through the lifters and then the pushrods, not likely to happen.

Any metal found up there either came from initial assembly or from something happening up there. Ferrous, well that points to push rods, pushrod cups in the rocker arms, springs/retainers/shims.... Chips, well if you were chipping the ends of the valve stems you should easily see that with the rockers off.

Other metal can come from the underside of the rockers rubbing on the edge of the retainers, that is pretty common. Many rockers are undercut there for more clearance. I have had to get them cut for more clearance in the past.

The titanium retainers on my race engine got worn-away over time, not sure how many passes, there were a lot. I found it when checking spring pressure, it was getting lower than I liked. So I took a pair off, and that's when I realized the retainer was razor-thin! I checked the specs on them and damn, I wonder how close I was to total failure. The springs weren't really the problem, I had lost about .015 on the damn retainers! I replaced all of it, costs way too much to float and drop a valve!

You are going with the short-travel lifters now? I know they aren't cheap, the LS guys have to run them to have their engines run reliably above 7000. That is when many just put solid rollers in there. They bring their problems upon themselves. If they simply put a good rocker system on there and got rid of the stock non-adjustable stuff they wouldn't have so many problems. I better watch it, if I speak too poorly about the God-given LS L@unch may come back, like saying Beetlejuice 3 times!
 
89 Fox 427 said:
There's a lot of pooled liquid oil/fuel on top of the intake valves. Hoping it's from me getting the carburetor off. There's definitely oil though. Not entirely sure where it's coming from, if it's being sucked up from lifter Valley


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Do your rocker studs go into any of the intake ports? This is a very common "problem" on SBC's. We have to put thread sealer on a bunch of our rocker studs to prevent oil from getting sucked up past the threads under high vacuum conditions, primarily when you lift off the throttle. Can also come from the bottom of the intake ports if the manifold does not crush the gasket enough. Happens a lot when the heads and/or block are milled some.
 
@Mike Beck that's too many questions!

Casting/machining flash and small specs/powder if I remember correctly. All ferrous.

Aluminum rockers and no chunks missing or signs of wear.

I went reduced travel at the suggestion of a builder I respect, and after talking to the guys at Johnson. They run out of the box Hydraulic roller lifters on a Gen 3 camaro with over 3k hp. That was pretty convincing.

Yes my studs required thread sealant but on a ford I believe they go into water jackets not intake ports. I could be wrong and will try to verify that.

What thread sealant do you recommend? I have ARP that I'm using.

I don't believe any milling was done on my intake, and the .060 gasket appeared to make my intake sit perfectly, but I'm not sure if the gasket had good squish down at the bottom. No studs there to really pinch it down. I may smear rtv there just in case. This grey rtv came off fairly easily, though I realize not many heat cycles was probably the reason.
 
Sorry for all the questions, but I am going to make you think about things! I've been at this money-sucking hobby fora very long time!

I love Permatex 2BR for sealing threads. It is a STINKY brown substance that never hardens and damn, it has never failed me! Did I tell you it stinks..........

I use The Right Stuff for gaskets like your intake gasket. Smear it around the ports, and the water jacket ports on your intake gaskets, the stuff really works. I use it on the china walls on my SBC's, in a way it kind of sucks, but it never leaks! I swear I can remove all the intake bolts and still lift the engine with an engine plate because of The Right Stuff! It is fantastic but sucks to remove later. Well worth the hassle though.
 
I used ARP before the forums were around, then I saw that none of the builders like it.
Permatex FTW.

My thought was that ARP is going to make sealant that gives the same torque value as their lube.
Apparently I overthought it. :p
 
Threads definitely go into intake port. Could certainly be sucking shit into the cylinder
 
This is the one that I use. I don't know if this is what they are referring to. I'm guessing not, it doesn't smell like a dog's ass.

perm.png
 
Little bit of oil in the intake does not concern me a bit. Especially on an engine with very few heat cycles.

Put some permatex on the threads and move along.

I use regular permatex grey, the shit works, to each there own though.
 
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